I have a friend who works at a Toyota engine plant and owns a first generation Prius. It’s a neat car, but I’m not interested in owning one. My friend commutes and the highway mileage is really not much better than a Corrola on the highway.Add to that the maintenance unknowns and dealer/mechanic inexperience with hybrids (a problem my friend has had) and I’m staying away from them.When my ‘93 Camry finally dies (226k mi and average MPG of 30+), I want a VW Jetta TDI. A VW TDI will beat a hybrid on the highway for fuel economy, is more driveable (gobs of torque) and will probably run up many, many more miles than any of the hybrids with fewer maintenance issues.

Thanks for your comments, John. I have heard from others that the gas mileage on the Prius isn’t all it’s cracked up to be - that’s partly  due to the EPA’s estimated mileage figures, which still seem inflated, even after decades of adjustments. That said, I think that the hybrid design is probably the future for most gasoline-powered vehicles. Using electric motors at the wheels is a smart thing to do, particularly for recapturing inertial energy when braking that would otherwise be lost to heat. As well, the Prius is as I recall an ULEV - Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle. That’s a good thing no matter how you look at it.I suspect that Toyota will switch to Lithium Ion batteries at some point, which will significantly redue the weight of the batteries, which will lend itself to better mileage. And incremental improvements to the Hybrid Synergy drive are inevitable.The ‘early adopters’ get to deal with all the unknowns for now - but that provides the data that is needed to make the incremental improvements. So, I look forward to Hybrids with much better gas mileage, lower costs, and eventually longer life.

I’ve only fiddled with test drives, Paul; but, living in a town that has a disproportionate number of Prius’, my wife and I have already decided that when her 200K+ miles old Volvo dies, it will be replaced with a Prius.

I get to chat with new and not-so-new Prius owners while grocery shopping on the weekend.  Even one early adopter who’s moved up to his 2nd, newer, snazzier model.  Those who usually get EPA mileage on other vehicles get very slightly reduced on their Prius.  My wife usually gets whatever is suggested and, since she’ll be the regular commuter, I imagine she’ll do well.  I used to drive 35-75K/year and always outperformed EPA — when I wished to, which was most of the time.  Even driving a stoked small-block Acura.

I mentioned this in John’s latest hydrogen post — that Toyota is cooking so hard and fast to keep up with demand — which remains hardly noticed by governments and stodgy auto firms like _______ [fill in the blank] — that they’re not only building new plants in China and adding to their facilities in the States, they’re having to purchase electric motors from firms they really hate.  Because their usual vendors can’t keep up with Toyota’s demand.  Bodes well.

one thing that caught me by surprise was that the Hybrid Synergy Drive isn’t what I thought it was. I had envisioned a design much like the standard Diesel-Electric locomotive - the Diesel engine powers the generator, which powers the motors at the wheels. But the HSD isn’t that at all - and I wonder why they made it so much more complex (in comparison to the locomotive system). I’d think four independent motors at the wheels, along with a gas motor powering the generator, would be more efficient. it would obviously require some sophisticated electronics to keep all four wheels at synchronized speeds, as well as adapting to the differential wheel speeds during turning.

I agree about the locomotive model.  Had some detailed discussions with my father-in-law [used to manage wiring sales to firms building locomotives, earthmovers, etc.] and it’s a model of engineering efficiency.

What we’re stuck with, though, is a populace who get in the car, turn the key, step on one or another pedal — and go.  Toyota still gets ripped over folks adding more batteries and plugging in at night.  They just want you "drive" the damned thing.

John should be posting my latest comment, soon — carrying on from my recent post on Toyota, etc. and the growing hybrid market.  I mention it because my wife and I are getting more serious about a Prius or Hy-Civic, if and when her ancient Volvo dies.

I answer some of the misconceptions and lousy math posted earlier by folks who rely on hearsay rather than the breadth of the Web for research.

1.  Current cost of replacing Prius battery set is $3K.  Down from $4.5K.  The batteries aren’t expected to drop dead, then; just become less efficient.  Like anything tech, I expect the economies of scale to continue that decrease.  Among the many Prius owners, here, an in-town average of 40 mpg is a piece of cake.  Her Volvo gets 25 mpg.  She consumes 2 gal/day with her commute at a top speed of 45 mph.  We both keep our vehicles — forever!  I have 200K on the clock in my Dodge pickup.  She’s approaching 225K on her Volvo.  The 8 year warranty on the Prius battery set is important, here.

So, when she changes over — for a vehicle which is the same cost or less as a Subaru [certainly below another Volvo] — she saves 4 gal/week x 50 weeks = 200 gallons of gasoline.  Even if prices don’t change.  Gasoline doesn’t get more expensive.  Batteries don’t get cheaper.    The battery set is $3K/8years = $375/year/$3 gal = 125 gal/year.  She gets the savings/cost of 75 gallons of gasoline/year.

Aside from the environmental contribution.

yup, i consider the cost of the batteries a red herring right now. The Prius hasn’t been around long enough for anyone to have even been faced with replacement. By the time that rolls around, I’d bet a full replacement set will cost $2K or less - and compared to the maintenance any vehicle requires as it ages, that’s well within standard/typical costs for a vehicle.As i understand it, the Prius batteries are NiMH. Eventually I’m sure they’ll migrate to LiON, as the weight savings will likely be worth the additional cost.

I’ve enjoyed my 2001 Prius for 50K miles ( several weeks ago ),  in 25K more miles my extended warranty will be over and it will be about time to invest in the Prius-Plus option.  I’m currently averaging about 49.5 mpg in the winter and about 54mpg in the summer.  I was a little scared at purchasing the 1st of their kind model as I’ve had bad experiences in the past, but this one has really only one problems that I have seen: the rear seats don’t fold down like the newer models.  Other than that, I’ve got my HOV Lane stickers and the manditory Fast Trak transponder required to get the stickers and it feels great!

All right, Paul.  You haven’t commented recently enough at DU for me to just find your post and click on your name.  I finally have broken down and bookmarked you!

I just posted an article about GE’s accession to a giant contract for locomotives for China — and sent a link to my father-in-law.  He knows a lot about diesel-electric power plants.  I know a bit.  I wondered if — in your searches around — you’d come across anyone projecting any sort of hybrid in this vein?

It would seem to me, in light of the constant-velocity transmissions now practical, that diesel powered generation/electric motor driven system should be getting nigh unto possible.  Especially with the cleaner diesel [and bio-diesel] happening around the country.

Thanks for your comments, gentlemen! As you may have noticed, I’ve not been too active lately. I’m thinking of ‘retooling’ energynucleus.com. I love alternative energy, but i also have the attention span of a six year old.

Well, send me a note if and when you "retool".  What is this, lately?  Another online acquaintance just changed the name of her blog so radically — I thought it had been captured by some fundamentalist church!

Anyway, Paul — I’m studiously waiting for my latest electricity bill.  I not only started acting like my father — turning off lights and doing the Bill Machrone drill in my study, every night — it just dawned on me [duh!] with our persistent low humidity and solar gain, to start using the clothesline for all my laundry, not just my favorite t-shirts [Tiger, Firefox, Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC].

Even when we get to January and sub-freezing temps during the day, the combination of bright sun, wind and low humidity should do the usual job of drying laundry in an hour or two.  And it may be a trite phrase; but, clothes smell so much better.

well Ed, i’m not sure whether you’re still tracking this site, but i thought i’d just mention my recent rant, er, post on my ‘other’ blog….  klaatu.anastrophe.com

just one of those sunday-morning-caffeine-jag verbal incontinence posts….

I had the same response.  And being an old fart [uncapitalized], I got bored sooner.

One of the rules we try to uphold at DU in moderating Comments includes profanity.  Frankly, we rarely delete or edit a Comment; but, we try to keep the standards up to close-to-adult.  It’s only the outside of this Eideard that’s an old fart.  Inside, my silly brain still thinks I’m 26.

By the way, my latest electricity bill came in and I’m tracking about 15% less/month than I was paying before I started remembering to turn off Everything that has a transformer.  About the only one I leave on is the charger/transformer for my Powerbook — because it’s under an end table between 2 couches and I have to climb over stuff to get to it.

Drop by DU, today, after 11 AM PST.  I have an small update on Toyota hybrid plans coming online.

Toyta is making the hybrid more as a marketing tool than a conservation tool. Look at the cost that you pay extra for the car, around 9grand extra vs. a real ‘econo-box’. How much extra gas can you buy for your econo-box for that money when the hybred will get 15-20% better mileage. You beter keep that car better than 100,000 miles and gas prices are going to have to go up $2.00 just to break even. Check the math.  

valid points all, of course. however, part of the value of this is in getting hybrid technology into the mainstream, where economies of scale can bring the costs down, and wider use provides more data for refining and improving the systems. hybrid isn’t a panacea, but it’s a start in the right direction.

We have a 2005 Prius with over 50k on it and we are averaging 40 mpg in the winter and
48 in the spring and about 51 in the summer. With gas approaching $4.00 a gallon, it was
one of the best impulse purchases I have ever made. I drive it regularly to Seattle and San
Francisco, and as a long haul vehicle it is awesome. It weighs about 3500 #s and is solid
like a Cadillac and when you accelerate from 60 to 100 ( like I have done in Nevada
passing long strings of cars and semi-trucks ) I was very surprised how quick it got up
there and it was awesome. Maybe not a Lamberginie, but then again, I did not pay
$150,000 either. If I can scrape up the money, I will definitely buy another Prius. Right
now the economy sucks and so does my income, and paying $3.79 a gallon hurts, but not
as much as driving my 98′ S10 Chevy Pickup that gets only 18 mpg. As for the batteries,
they are expected to last the life of the car (200k - 300k) because they do not discharge
fully and recharge, which is the big problem with all other batteries. The cost then will be
probably around $2,000, and gas could be $6.00 a gallon. the rate it is going up now.
The NIMHI battery will probably be around for a long as the lighter Lith bats tend to
catch fire.